Richard III — found???!??
[ETA: post updated to provide working links]
Multiple sources (The Independent; The Telegraph; The Guardian) are now reporting that Leicester excavators have found human remains in their dig, and have reason to believe based on circumstantial evidence that they have found the mortal remains of Richard III. As anticipated, mitochondrial DNA results will take some time to come in.
Can you imagine being the archaeologist who discovered that?
Congratulations to Philippa Langley along with all who supported this project with their energy and money — again, whether or not this is Richard III, the results are still significant.
And: Should this be the case, it would certainly offer a potentially large tank of fuel to support the realization of Richard Armitage’s interests in pursuing a Richard III project.
Have you signed the petition to support Armitage’s goals? Strike while the iron is hot! Sign it already!
Interested in the group read of The Sunne in Splendour? Details here.
Reblogged this on Well, There You Go … and commented:
Congratulations to the archaeological team in Leicester!!! What historic news!
Thank you, Servetus! The link to the petition is: Sign the Petition
And today’s news with wonderful video by the University of Leicester is here.
Thanks for the links!
I am very excited about this possibility! Was disappointed not to be able to go to the open day on Saturday…apparently there were very long queues! If it is him (and that’s a very big if), I do hope they inter his remains in the cathedral.
Too bad you couldn’t go to the open day — but now that this has been determined, maybe they will find some way to leave part of it open / visible. There have been some models in Mainz of what happens when a developer runs into Roman ruins that use windows to let you see what’s there (and build the commercial stuff on top of / around it).
They done similar things all over Athens with the construction of the Metro…bits of the excavation left visible, with the modern structure built around it. There’s a huge section of a bath complex visible that came up in the foundations for the new Acropolis museum…they’ve simply put in a clear floor so visitors can see down into the excavation site. It is a really good way to integrate the heritage of a location with its modern function.
I wish that they would do that here. We have sites that go down through strata from the Reconquista to the Moors to the early Christians to the Romans to the Carthaginians and the Phoenecians — it just keeps going.
Nothing better than an archaeological layer cake….:). I think it is the cultural preservation trend of the moment.
We’ll have to wait and see…it might not be in the best place to open it out. The car park / excavation site is surrounded by other buildings many of which are listed. I guess we’ll just have to be patient and see what transpires.
there’s also a question of how interesting it is, really, to look at the ruins of a medieval choir. If they know it’s there they can also cover it up for now and wait for a moment when it might become more significant. More and more archaeologists are doing this kind of thing now (leaving pieces for others to discover).
And leaving things in place until funding is available to do it properly.
and there are always new technologies to try.
Indeed, what an exciting find for archaeologists if it turns out to be RIIII!
Yes, I think this would be a great kickstart for RA’s dream project if the ID is made.
the thing is archaeologists are probably just as happy to find anyone’s medieval grave — this is really a once in a lifetime thing.
I hope that he can use this interest well.
You are totally right…my archaeology senses are tingling at the thought of it! The RIII connection would be spectacular, but any medieval grave has the potential to provide a lot of information given the technology we now have to examine skeletons. I have kind of avoided human remains when possible in my professional career because of the magnitude of red tape that usually accompanies them, but this type of find could be a career defining one.
I don’t do archaeology, my field uses books, manuscripts and objects as sources, but / and I have to admit that I’m tense about these projects. Richard III was a Christian in an era when most Christians who had any sort of belief on the topic believed that they would be resurrected in the body — so any decision to play with it makes me a bit troubled. I probably wouldn’t have published so much about this had it not been the case that right from the beginning all the reports said the remains, whatever they were, would definitely be re-interred.
The sanctity of a burial is definitely a concern from a religious perspective. Most of my fieldwork has dated to well before the Christian era amongst cultures who had little concern with resurrection, but there is still something a dit dicey to me personally about disturbing human remains if you don’t need to in the name of study. If they come up in the digging of a well or something, they have to be dealt with, but I’m not entirely sure (I should do more research) what the scientific aim behind this is…just to locate the internment? Does that she’d new light on anything re his life? Not sure.
As far as I know the main point was just to find his body. He’s one of two English monarchs whose bodies are “missing” (James II is the other). However, I suppose it would settle some questions about the accuracy of the reports of his physiognomy, which were used to cast aspersions upon him by the Tudors. We’d know whether he could have been a hunchback, for example.
Yeah, I’m kind etsi ketsi in these cases. I can see the scientific potential, BUT…. I do like the imagery of a battle royale between the cathedrals for the honor of the final resting place
I want to see the battle, too. There was one raging here for decades over who should have stewardship of the reliquary containing the hand of St. Theresa of Avila. The Carmelites appear to have won.
As I see it, the forensic examination will also clear up what was said on both sides re. his death in battle and post mortem treatment of his body. To me, it is amazing that there’s still enough to study after more than 500 years.
Sorry for the weird typos…bleeping iPad keyboard!
Contrary to what people may think based on my periodic engagement in grammatical persiflage of Richard Armitage, no penalty is assessed for typos in comments on “me + richard.”
I think my mania on typos stems from haranguing students about it …practice what you preach and all that blather
I’m sure if this were a grant proposal you were writing, it would be perfect.
I signed the petition, but I think it’s cheating to sign more than once (like voting). But if the forensic tests demonstrate that these are indeed the king’s remains, yes, I think it will push the project forward. Good on U. of Leicester, Philippa Langley, and all involved! If the remains are those of King Richard III, I hope they are re-interred appropriately, possibly in the cathedral at York, where it was documented that he mattered to the people of the city. I wonder if there would be space for a newly commissioned stained-glass window…
the web page will prevent you from signing more than once. If it’s really Richard III, there will be battle royale over who gets to inter him.
I must say that Richard Taylor’s emotions are contagious. *wiped the tear of bliss*
I operate in general on the principle that anything can be exciting if the person communicating it is excited. I had to study 17th c. French tax systems for a semester in grad school — not something i would have picked, but the person who taught it was magnetic.
I felt the same way about Norman French literature. (You have to take some courses outside your major.) Enthusiasm is contagious.
Serve, that is so true. Enthusiasm really can be contagious. If a person has a real passion and interest in a subject. it can spread to others.
Truly, that person must have been unusual.
The thing is that on the face of it, you think it’s going to be a course about bookkeeping issues. (Which it was.) Then eventually you realize that how an entity chooses to collect its taxes is vital to its existence (and determines how it is perceived). In this particular case, the national French government becomes financially unmaneuverable (can’t borrow, can’t tax further, can’t declare bankruptcy) after the early 18th c., and this is the issue that persuades Louis XVI that he has to call the estates general. So the course became a class in understand the means by which taxing entities paint themselves into corners they can’t get out of. But that was because the guy who taught it was so charismatic.
Reblogged this on Me, My Thoughts, and Richard Armitage and commented:
Confession is good for the soul…I’m not really all that into the Richard III stuff, but even I find this incredibly exciting!
If you consider how into it I probably should be, the same is true for me. By default my profession means that i have a certain amount of interest — but the average lay person who likes English history is probably more inherently interested than I am.
Something fascinating happened today, though — there was a thematic convergence between my real life information feeds and my Servetus ones. The only case in which this has occurred (and that is *very* minimally) is in the announcements about The Hobbit. But both Servetus and the real me are getting bombarded with excitement about this discovery.
I know what you mean…I ran into a colleague yesterday who is totally off the Armitage grid, but does a lot with Tudor/Stuart England, and he mentioned the RIII excavation out of the blue. Although in retrospect, it could have had something to do with the fact that I was toting “The Sunne in Splendour” from the library.
(I really want to underline or italicize that title, but I don’t know how to do it in this format)
I spend a fair amount of time writing at a table next to my closest colleague, and I have to be *very* careful about what’s on my screen when he’s there.
I’m not ready to be “outed” in a professional context. Men can be fantasy football lunatics and that is fine, but I suspect my work credibility would take a bit of a hit if the fangirl thing was known. Although, I am working on a movie class using film adaptations of Elizabeth Gaskell novels…at least I have a N&S cover
. Come to think of it, some of the threads on whether RPF is “appropriate” might make an interesting discussion topic for the History of Sex…hmmm.
Sounds like the start of a great series of lectures…
Good potential for sure! I am definitely enthusiastic, and that always helps.
I have a colleague who includes fanfic / slash in her History of Modern Sexuality course. We’ve had many interesting conversations about the potential appeal of slash.
Yes. Women are already at a disadvantage in the academy in terms of “seriousness.”
I’m sure that the remains will be treated with great respect, whether DNA proves them to be those Richard or not. Whether Leicester or York provides the final tomb, and notwithstanding that each is of the “Reformed Church” of the following century, it will be done with due reverence. (I admit to hoping, if it is the King, that it could be York, the city he won from its Lancastrian support by his management of, and devotion to the North.)
Yeah, I don’t think they’re going to be throwing them around — the issue is more whether they need to be disinterred at all in the first place and if so, why. We in the modern West are pretty cavalier with people’s remains precisely because we’re so inappropriately cavalier with our own, I suspect.
I honestly don’t care where they rebury him as long as they do it in a respectful way that takes seriously the convictions of his own time on the matter.
I admit to a good deal if ignorance of this era, I wondered…would this site have been considered hallowed…that is, is the church yard, being a churchyard sacred enough for a proper Christian burial, royalty notwithstanding?
I can’t imagine he’d have been buried in the churchyard — he is more likely to have been buried in the choir of the church, probably underneath a floor. The church itself disappeared after the dissolution of the monasteries; presumably, it would have been deconsecrated when the Franciscans left Leicester. There are some people who have argued that since the church was most likely deconsecrated a reinterment would be in the sense of a medieval Christian.
Was I mistaken in hearing that the remains were found beneath the choir? This would have been the expected location for a noble’s burial at the time.
Agreed. From existing eveidence, he was devout. At the very least, there should be a mass.
Obscura, I think the area was identified as being the site of the church/chapel of the friary itself. An adjoining churchyard/burial area would have been consecrated, in any case.
I was just looking at the history of the Franciscans in Leicester. They don’t seem to have a library or archive that survived. They were best known for sympathizing with Richard II and seem to have been disciplined by their fellow monks for doing so. It was an early foundation (1230 already in existence), but looks like it was hit hard by the Reformation. The church was surrendered by a warden and six monks with nothing else (no wealth, paraments, liturgical appliances, art, books) in 1538, and the footnote for this information refers to the government register of what it gained from the dissolution, not to any monastery record.
I think I misred the article to say that the area they found the internment in was part of the churchyard. I thought that seemed a bit odd, but I know next to nothing about medieval funeral practice…it’s all AD to me
. Thanks for the info.
Obscura, perhaps the confusion arises from the fact that an alderman and former mayor of the city bought some of the Greyfriars land in the early 1600s, building a mansion and garden on the friary site. Some artifacts found by the team are thought to be paving stones from the garden of Mayor Robert Herrick.
(Obviously, I’m slightly excited by these discoveries, and the years of research that went into the dig
)
Thanks Fitzsg, I have to take full responsibility for any misread though
. I knew nothing about the changes you mentioned, but I’m grateful that so many who are better informed than I am are accessible and willing to kindly correct misapprehensions. I am a proud history nerd, but there are certainly HUGE gaps in my subject mastery. A girl’s got to leave some time for RA exposure as well right 
.
I probably need to state for the record that I didn’t read much of the coverage yesterday and none in any depth. Every class I teach meets on Wednesday and I was on different continents for most of the day, intellectually.
ouch…is that by choice or evil scheduling trolls?
It’s a fight your battles issue. I’m very low woman on the totem pole here, and this is an issue I can be flexible on (no kids, no family) so I do. I’m sure I could get it changed but there are things I care about more.
Ahhh, I see. It does makes for a long day though…I request to have my night class meet the same day as my other classes specifically to reduce the number of days I need to be on campus. The 14 hour Tuesday is brutal, but the work at home Wednesday is nice. Well, was – I overbooked myself a bit this semester. Sounded like a good idea when I signed the contract
I live within a mile of campus, so it’s no trouble for me to be there — also, the parking situation is optimal, I can easily find a space within 100 yards of the door to my building. What I prefer to be is less flexible on the subjects I teach — so I try not to make noise over this kind of thing.
I always think the eyes are bigger than the stomach before the term starts. I tried *really* hard this year to make my expectations as low as possible to avoid the crisis points that inevitably come, or at least minimize them.
Even in a tenure-track position, without seniority, It is difficult to get a manageable load, a reasonable schedule, and a minimum of the lower-division mob-scene classes. You have my sympathies.
I have the best imaginable situation for someone who’s not on the tenure track (which is good, because I’m not sure I could stand that ever again). The price I am paying not to be in that hierarchy at the moment is very low compared to the costs I experienced in my last job.
My thinking then..”what is one more section of 101?” My thinking now, “35 more everything!” It’s the grading that kills me…I’d lecture and discuss all day, everyday, but reading the assignments I feel are necessary is daunting. (I just calculated it…1200 primary source and geography assignments across my 101/102 sections alone…What have I done?!) I jokingly refer to it at the “articles of my indenture.” For me, being a team player on these issues creates the good will I need to be able to teach the topical classes that otherwise might not be offered.
we have a lot in common, then. It’s the grading that threatens to kill me — my feeling of drowning in it, the way it makes me feel like I’ve failed, the way it makes me think of all the ways these students have been failed in the past, my feeling of not being able to do an adequate job, the avoidance, which ends in night long orgies of dysphoria that makes me avoid the next stack just as firmly — a cascade of negative feelings that threatens never to end.
I don’t know that I’ve been that viscerally affected by it as yet. It is certainly oppressive and I avoid it. I do wonder where I’ve gone wrong in my instruction that some of them still don’t get it. Part of me feels like I am bearing the brunt of what other people have failed to do in the past…they don’t know how to do things, because they’ve not been required to do them in the past. I would really rather not read all of these assignments, but that would mean not assigning them et cetera, et cetera ad infinitum. Not surprisingly, I’ve managed to read exactly 4 out of a pile of 60 in the past 40 minutes. At the moment, my eye is on the prize of Grey Goose and tonics and idyllic peninsular vistas, lighthouses and fudge! Bring on the weekend.
I invite you not to take on neuroses that are not your own! I would wish mine on no one.
I don’t know how long you’ve been teaching, but people do get worn down. I wondered last year, for instance, why upper division students here aren’t doing more essay writing. Around the middle of March, I understood. The slog is just more than any human can handle, and you try to focus on issues you can actually address and hope that progress is being made that way, rather than undertaking the task of building a building from the bottom and never actually finishing. Teachers need positive reinforcement, too, in the sense that they see student work improving. If you don’t have allies, you won’t get far, because the lessons you are teaching need to be reinforced elsewhere. You can’t be the single person holding her thumb in the dike that’s between western civilization and the deluge.
How exciting if this is Richard III and if not what they think they have. My British magazines will be abuzz with great reading for awhile. I do hope it is Richard III. I am also excited I can comment again for the first time in a few days.
yes, a great day for Britons and people who love them !
Obscura, I’m a huge medieval history nerd (so useful – not.
) But I often get a detail wrong, and have to check back! I wonder if that Robert Herrick was of the family of the poet Herrick…(don’t have time to check just now…)
Don’t worry, I’ve plenty of my own neuroses, you can keep yours
I have been teaching full time for about 10 years…well full time (and then some at times) course load, no time benefits, so I feel the wear down pretty acutely at times…usually more so in the spring. My department is generally on the same page in terms of expectations, so the disconnect is coming from other programs and perhaps from an under prepared student body due to our mission sensitive admission policies. I have definitely lost interest in tilting at windmills… I try to content myself with giving all that I can to the ones who are willing to embrace it and trying not to take the rest as a personal failure. AND, according to my last set of evals, I’m a rock star! (amongst history professors in my area anyway ) You are right…the small victories can have BIG restorative payback.
if your evals are good, that’s something to congratulate yourself for — a lot of people struggle with that their whole careers.
Spanish Yahoo just ran the story of the excavation in Spanish (no video) so the word is spreading. The article speculates that the remains, if they are those of the king, would be re-interred in the Cathedral of Leicester.
If it’s solid, it’s going to be Leicester, York or London
I wouldn’t bet on which at this point.
If I were a betting woman, which I’m not, I would place that bet. Read into that what you will…
I assume Leicester will have the strongest case, esp after getting this whole project off the ground. I hope the remains can be identified definitively. I have to say something that frustrates me as a historical reader is all the argumentation that gets built on weak evidence but then represented as hard fact. I’d much prefer people to say, “we don’t know.”
Yes me too…I am on tenterhooks waiting for the DNA results!
I have 7 photos of the double page spread that appeared in The Times yesterday. I can’t scan them easily. I haven’t posted them online as was worried about copyright laws but if anyone would like to see them let me know. They include a short piece about Mr Ibsen, nice reporting of what you will no doubt have already read, commentary about “Good king or bad?” and a short piece about Shakespeare’s villain. I can’t provide links to the stories online because The Times operates behind a pay wall.
Kathrynruthd, if you *can* scan them, I’d love to see the bit about Ibsen.
I’ve emailed it to you – hope that’s OK.
I did see the press conference. It was streamed in real time, but that is all to date. The stream was live, and not recorded or whatever. The group were barely able to contain their excitement. I hope it will become more available and that in North America, we will also be able to see the BBC channel 4 doc which has been green-lighted. (I don’t know, but I wonder if Philippa Langley helped move this. Only a thought)
I hope the MtDNA will prove something.Caution: it might be non-conclusive, and circumstantial evidence will be all. This happens with DNA testing.Nevertheless, I remain excited about what has been uncovered in two weeks. The probability seems high. On another personal level, the Canadian connections just add to personal excitement (since reading Tey as a young teen, and developing a strong interest in medieval history)
Now intrigued by the discovery of apparently female bones discovered nearby…
there’s going to be lots of tension while we’re waiting