Wow, Armitageworld explodes!

Congratulations to Richard Armitage on his Hannibal casting! Happy wishes to all the fans who are thrilled about this. It’s a great professional success and career move, too. For me, however, this one falls decidedly in the genre of a television show I never wanted to find myself watching, and role types that leave me cold. Never say never, though. This will be a challenge, but I guess we’ll see what happens when I try to watch the first episode. I’ll try anything once.

~ by Servetus on January 13, 2015.

141 Responses to “Wow, Armitageworld explodes!”

  1. I’m so excited! I sort of entered Hannibal more as a fan of Bryan Fuller’s work and writing than the novels, and the series has been such a blast so far. It has such good writing (IMHO) and lovely fandom-friendly staff, Richard can’t be in better hands. I’m so eager to see what the Hannibal staff can draw out of him. ๐Ÿ˜€

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    • I think this is a great move for him professional and potentially even artistically — I just — uch. I recognized that Silence of the Lambs was a good movie, maybe even a great one. I just watched it once and it made me sick watching it and gave me bad dreams for days. Not my thing.

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      • Yeah, I can understand that. I had to deal with some personal squicks as well (and confession time, I have a friend who timestamps the really gross parts so that I wouldn’t be triggered). But I personally think the series does a pretty good job in general of steering clear of the Anthony Hopkins version and portraying death and murder as idealized aesthetic expressions, which makes them cartoony for me, in a way, and far more tolerable. But yes, can also definitely understand wanting to give it a large berth! Very interested to read your perception of the show when RA’s eps pop up, if you do decide to watch it! ๐Ÿ˜€

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        • oh, interesting. Maybe I can watch your friend’s versions of the episodes? ๐Ÿ™‚

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          • Ack, wish we had separate versions of the episodes to show, but my friend would really just e-mail me timestamps when to stop watching the screen and when to resume, followed by a brief text description of what happened sometimes if it’s important to the story. If you’re interested in something like that, I could poke her about it again! I’m sure she wouldn’t mind a rewatch, she loves the show that much. ๐Ÿ˜€

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      • I was just telling Perry , Silence of the lambs haunts me even now. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ
        I’m going to have to skip this RA role

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        • For me, part of it is that I just don’t watch that kind of stuff regularly (wasn’t allowed to as a child, is a big piece of it) so I haven’t built up the thick skin for it.

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    • I don’t have to love everything he does!

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      • I’m not a fan of the gore or the terror either. I had a hard time watching season one and I’m a big fan of Mikkelsen and some of the other cast they’ve had. But being inside that kind of mind is disturbing, just watching it.

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      • Didn’t mean to imply you should, sorry if I inferred that in any way! I’m just terribly excited, sorry.

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  2. I just glanced at the comments over there and saw some were hoping for Lee Pace. I hadn’t ever thought of them being up against each other for work. Interesting. Guess I’ve got a little TV to catch up on.

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    • I think I’ll be kibitzing this one until I know I really want to watch it. No need to make myself ill. If he was up against Pace, how fascinating!

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    • Lee’s show got renewed so I think he suggested Richard for the role. Lee and Bryan Fuller’s friendship goes way back.

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  3. Servetus, I’m with you. I don’t know if I’ll even be able to get through an episode. My son watches the show and sometimes just the sound and/or dialogue give me the creeps (I’m two rooms away.) I never got through Silence of the Lambs. I thought I would watch RA in anything but this might be the show to break the trend.

    I agree that it is a good move for him professionally. He will be known to a whole new audience.

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    • yes absolutely — great way to break into the US TV industry, by being one one of the most watched shows. I’ve always thought his management was good, but in this, they have topped themselves.

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  4. Love Richard but not going to watch this show (remind me later that I said it). Silence of the Lambs made me sick too.

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    • So relieved I’m not the only one — I felt like such a killjoy!

      I’m going to try it but I’ll wait until the first episode premieres. I’m not going to watch the previous episodes to “warm up” or I’ll never get through Armitage’s part, I fear.

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      • I’m afraid I will end up watching only videoclips from this show on Youtube. Looking forward to download The Crucible soon…

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      • Count me in too Serv! Never watched Silenece of the Lambs, and even if Hannibal were on free to air here, I couldn’t watch from start to finish even with Richard in it. Just the thought of what the characters’ penchant is for to makes me feel ill. If anything, it will be the dvd and the FF button for me. Who knows, maybe screencaps and gifs will be enough sigh who am I kidding? I hate the thought of missing one of Richard’s performances.

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        • yeah, me too, I know exactly what you’re saying. I wish I could see him without the gruesome pieces of it. Maybe someone will create a version for kids like us, lol ๐Ÿ™‚

          I’ve watched a lot of film of disgusting things — historical atrocities, for instance — so I know I can make myself watch stuff like this. I just don’t know what the incentive will be beyond wanting to see Armitage.

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          • how i feel too, but i’d be against taking the gruesome parts out.. the point of the character is exactly that, the epitome of gruesome, twisted, sick and that’s it. I kind of refuse to pretty up what it is, that is what he chose to do, end of ๐Ÿ™‚ Hard as it is we have to stare reality in the face. Quantity of gore i have to say does not make much difference in my view of the character, it’s what he does that makes me recoil not how much we see of it ๐Ÿ˜ฆ I could make myself watch the gore, same reason as you state, gosh we see enough of it on the news and in documentaries ๐Ÿ˜ฆ My mind refuses to engage with the character…

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            • I’m sorry — how is not wanting to watch some parts of a tv show about a novel refusing to look reality in the face?

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              • I think Hari meant “we have to stare the reality of this character and of this show in the face”.

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                • yes ๐Ÿ™‚ i am getting a feeling for myself at least that they will try to play with my view of the character and make me feel attracted to him and i don’t really want that, so i’ll have to keep reminding myself of the killer aspect

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              • sorry my comment was confusing, i meant to say that i get the feeling some aspects will be made very attractive and appealing and it will take some effort to actually remember what the character is about/inside. That appealing or interesting as he might be ultimately he is a killer (that was what i meant by reality). But i get the feeling this show is all about rethinking reality and making you doubt what you see and what it means and what is behind it, which is one of its more fascinating aspects. It’s quite possible it will offer us such material that taken on its own will show as the most attractive RA we have ever seen ๐Ÿ™‚

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                • To some extent my frustration comes out the wake of watching Spooks 8, which generated a huge skirmish in the objectification wars. (Lucas takes off his kit in 8.4 — not sure you’ve watched Spooks yet.) There was a big round of “how beautiful,” which was termed objectification by people who were bothered by it, which in turn led to people criticizing other fans for making Armitage nothing more than a body — all of which ignored important contextual factors like the place of the disrobing in the story, the fact that Armitage had consented to doing it, that the show aired on (more permissive than the US) UK TV first, and so on. The end point of this for me was essentially that although I tend to be a contextual and moral thinker myself, that there’s nothing that says there’s a right or wrong way to watch something. So I guess what I’m saying is, if I am asked whether it is “okay” to aestheticize a killer in a sort of fan milieu, I will say “yes,” even if i don’t like it myself or see the troubling implications. I’ve only ever found one moment at which I could develop an exception to this general reaction to how the fandom deals with Armitage’s work, and it involved Paul Andrews.

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  5. Wie gesagt, man muss nicht alles von ihm gesehen haben. Ich ertrage schon Hannibal selber nicht. Aber wer weiss, nachher verleiht er ihm noch einen heartwarming touch und alle lieben ihn. Guy war ja auchmal sehr eindimensional angelegt und wir wissen was passiert ist ๐Ÿ˜‰

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    • This is true, but RH was shown in British prime time, i.e., the show was meant to be seen by children …

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      • Ich weiss! War auch nur ein verzweifelter Versuch, mir diese Entscheidung schรถnzureden ๐Ÿ˜‰ Das geht sicher weit รผber geschmackvoll und kindgerecht hinaus.

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        • To be honest, as well, I haven’t seen the series. So I don’t know what it’s like. Maybe they fade to black at especially bad moments ๐Ÿ™‚

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          • Du, ich habe diese Themen bisher auch kein bisschen vermisst. Das Buch und auch die Serie wรผrde ich mit der Kneifzange nicht anrรผhren. Bin nachhaltig geprรคgt von meinen literarischen Erfahrungen mit Stephen King ” Es”. Damals wurde mir nach den ersten Seiten des Buches dermassen schlecht, dass ich das als einmailge Erfahrung ad acta gelegt habe. Ich denke mir, Hannibal spielt in einer รคhnlichen Liga.

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            • Funny, my (too) early experience of reading Stephen King (5th grade) also put me off this kind of thing. I don’t remember which novel any more, just that it was sickening.

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              • Ich meide seitdem Stephen Kings Horrogeschichten wie die Pest. Mir ist richtig der Kreislauf weggesackt. War sicher auch der Pubertรคt und dem niedrigen Blutdruck geschuldet. ๐Ÿ˜‰ aber trotzdem: die Macht der Worte und der Imagination.

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                • it was something I was just turning over in my head — the visualization of stuff that I’d prefer to leave in my imagination (where I would ignore it). Then again I love certain kinds of porn and plenty of people would say that stuff shouldn’t be visualized at all, either …

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                  • Stimmt. Wenn das Grauen literarisch sehr detailgetreu wird, springt mich das physisch an. Genauso wie (gut gemachte) Erotik/Pornografie. Bloss im ersten Fall gehts mir dreckig, im zweiten Fall deutlich besser ๐Ÿ™‚

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                  • but that is about pleasure and it is consensual ๐Ÿ™‚ BIG difference… this is about horror.. Have same reaction to King, was unable to read but i know from early on i can’t take horror in any shape of form, books are even worse than movies because i fight my own imagination, i’m my own worst enemy that way. And my best friend in others ๐Ÿ˜‰ Maybe you’ve just found the secret solution! Because my mind has been playing tricks on me already looking at photos, maybe all i need to do to settle it is imagine the exact opposite! ๐Ÿ˜€ no problem whatsoever doing that ๐Ÿ™‚

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              • Hi, first post here ๐Ÿ™‚
                Re: book and visuals, I saw The Silence of the Lambs, in DVD not in a theater, because of Hopkins and Foster. I found the movie to be good (I must say I had fo FF some stuff) and I like Manhunter too, maybe more, though that kind of movies aren’t my ‘cup of tea’ at all. But I liked the atmosphere (ambiance?) and the acting.
                Afterwards, I tried to read the book (TSOTL) and couldn’t make myself to pass a certain scene in the beginning. I stopped reading it at once. I still don’t know why, since I usually am more impressed by visuals and sounds… and I call myself a good reader. Lol
                Nevertheless, I’m thrilled RA is getting the opportunity to be more known! I will give it definitely a try.

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  6. He once claimed as well that he didn’t like horror stuff so I guess that has changed.

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    • I was thinking of that, too. But I think when an opportunity like this comes along it would awfully hard to say no. I wonder if he had watched the show before he started talks for the role. At the same time, in the past he’s always said things that indicate both his issues with roles and his reasons for taking them and then promoting them — so perhaps he’ll say something about his journey toward the role sooner or later.

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  7. I have a morbid fascination with serial killers and will always watch a documentary about them. I am a little squeamish about the topic, but I find it so compelling that I do enjoy it in fiction and film, as well. This is most definitely going to be right up my alley. Hubby is game for the genre as well, so we can watch together. To say I’m excited is an understatement! =)

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    • I think this will also target that desirable male and younger demographic for him, definitely.

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      • you know what, i think that is spot on! it is not like he will loose any of us ๐Ÿ˜‰ I’m still on board and would never leave based on a role, i might just not watch it. But this gives him access to a completely new and unexplored audience segment! the big fans of this are probably even unlikely to be Hobbit fans ๐Ÿ™‚ So the new audience point i am sure is very important and very likely deliberate.

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  8. Well, I am with you on this one. It’s definitely gonna be a challenge for me. Never watched the original film, and honestly feel nauseous just thinking of cannibalism. Some unfortunate associations with a high-profile German courtcase come to mind. But hey, career-wise probably a killer move. Pun intended.

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  9. Great. More RA homework…another book to read…Red Dragon by Thomas Harris (apparantly, according to good old Wikipedia…The title refers to the figure from The Great Red Dragon Paintings by William Blake–hello Lucas North). And now I am going to have to pay for TV when I move, which I was planning to live without. I haven’t watched the Hannibal TV show yet….Silence of the Lambs creeped me out for years…but for RA…I will go there. Can’t wait! And Gillian Anderson is on the show? Bonus!

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  10. Well, having been married nearly 30 years to a man who loves horror films and having watched quite a few with him, not to mention my own fascination with the psychology of serial killers, I will give it a go. Haven’t seen any of this series to date, but heard plenty of positive buzz about it. Is it my first choice for a television role for him? Well, no—but I do think it’s an excellent career move. I had been hoping a errmmm–“meaty” TV role would open up for him on American TV. Gillian Anderson is one of my favorite actresses and will love seeing her again, too. ๐Ÿ˜€

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  11. Uh, i don’t know about this one. It’s A massive opportunity for Richard, a marvellous career move, and I congratulate him.
    Personally, I don’t Think I can watch. Besides, we haven’t Got it here inspite of Mads Mikkelsen being Danish. Perhaps in time the show will become affordable for DK television ๐Ÿ™‚

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  12. I haven’t seen the series but I have read all the books and seen the movies (even the horrible one where Ray Liotta has to eat his own sauteed brains). You have to love that, it is just so deliciously over the top. I will be sure to watch the tv show now. I find it really interesting that RA will be recreating a role Finnes did. They both have very expressive eyes and our guy will probably use his to good effect to bring out Dollarhyde’s softer side. If a serial killer can have a softer side, RA is just the guy that can find it.

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    • he’s never been less than great in any role, so I can imagine he will be great in this one!

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      • I think so too. You should rent the first version of Red Dragon which is Manhunter with William Peterson. Dollarhyde is not as nuanced as Finnes’ version, but he still has a tragic backstory and tries to connect with someone, not as a menu item. That version is more faithful to the book, IMO, and Dollarhyde is physically imposing over all other characters. He is the boogie man that towers over everyone. I think RA will be great. I am very excited. Imagine, now maybe a few more people will know who he is.

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        • I was thinking that, too. Good exposure. Hopefully this doesn’t involve prosthetics?

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          • He is not named the “tooth fairy” for nothing. But for everyday wear, he will probably be sporting the pearly whites we are used to.

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            • he’s said a couple times that people see him and don’t recognize him as Thorin.

              Speaking of which — if he is more recognizable, I wonder what the impact of playing this role will be on his anonymity.

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    • Hmmm, you think, maybe we will LOVE him doing this? ๐Ÿ˜‰

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  13. I wish him all the best, but I think I’m going to have to stay on the bench for this one. Which makes me sad.

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    • There’s a weird quality to his first role in native US tv being something I’m not excited to watch. It’s also the first time I’ve ever felt let down by a role announcement, which is a totally new experience for me.

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      • Yeah, agreed. I wanted to be more excited than this. And on the one hand, I’m glad he’s getting the work since obviously he wouldn’t have taken it if he didn’t want to be doing it, but yeesh. It literally could not have been less something I will watch.

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    • I’m sad too!

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      • I think this might be how a lot of the legacy fans felt after the Strike Back announcement back in 2009 — and he’s always varied his roles quite a bit. Also we have a drug addict and a psychiatrist to look forward to seeing soon (I hope!).

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        • i could get excited about nearly anything else, even a historical, true villain, plenty of those.. some fanatic of some description, interesting psychology to explore, a cut throat, greedy character of some sort.. the range of human flaws is immense ๐Ÿ™‚ and worth exploring .. the pathological like is more for doctors to try and deal with as understanding is not really possible..

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          • hmmm, I guess I am not that pessimistic. Understanding is always imperfect and incomplete and perspectival, but that is no different for the rest of us than it is for doctors.

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  14. Ok, I even go as far as to say, this is a somehow disturbing info for me….. Definitely not my kind of genre. This will pretty surely proof to be a real challenge for me to watch (pieces of) it. Actually the mere thought of it makes me feel chilly…. I’ve avoided watching “Silence of the lambs” for a long time, although it was a film one “had to see”!! I can’t remember, why months later I however ended up watching it with friends in a cinema, feeling utterly upset and devasted afterwards.

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    • yeah, if you were going to go along with that particular version of “willing suspension of disbelief” you had to become a weirdly politically neutral observer and/or just accept a lot of social stereotypes. First, a film about the brutal execution and gutting of women, and then a trans villain. Not to mention all the misogynist elements around the character Jodie Foster played. There was a lot not to like about it even apart from the gore and horror aspects.

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      • …no way for me to be a politically neutral observer in this subject. It just left me totally bewildered and distraught. What’s to learn for me here and why the heck I had to confront me with this topic, as there is usually always enough stuff around that “burdens” me sufficiently?

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        • I also have a hard time feeling any kind of catharsis from watching that sort of film. It’s also hard on my body. Muscle aches and pains, clenched jaw, etc., afterwards.

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  15. Thank you for letting us know Servetus. Will mention you and put a link to here in my post.

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    • you’re welcome, but I didn’t break the story — about six blogs had it before me. hazards of a 9 to 5 job, lol ๐Ÿ™‚

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  16. It took me a while to start watching Hannibal – as a huge fan of Bryan Fuller – because of the gore. It’s a really well written show, and the gore is so weird and beautifully rendered and the situations are so over the top that I could do it. There was some eye averting though, and I did get some weird dreams if I watched late at night. It might be worth checking out for you, but we all have our own lines in the sand. Actually, I found the sound effects to be sometimes the most unsettling part of the show.

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    • Like I said, I’ll try it once at least. I’m not going to reject something my favorite actor does out of hand, homo sum humani nihil a me alienum puto and so on … we’ll see how it goes.

      A friend just sent me some more info about the character that suggests that at least in the book, the character has a lot of features that might put this role right in the sweet spot of things Armitage likes to do. Also, it’s again someone who’s apparently deformed … he’s been wanting to do Elephant Man since 2010 at least.

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      • I would never want to pressure someone to watch something that grossed them out as I’m sensitive to gore too! The first few episodes are procedural but they get quite episodic and the plot builds on itself. It is Bryan Fuller, so even though the subject matter is twisted, there is a slight toungue in cheek feel sometimes. I’d say it has a different tone than Silence of the Lambs. Apparently his character is a body builder with a giant back tattoo so if nothing else we’ll get some amazing buff topless screenshots!

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  17. Such good news. Thanks for letting us know. So it means he will be spending some time in Toronto. Now that does make me smile.

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  18. Yep, that sound is me dragging a chair to the kids’ table. I won’t be watching this one. I never even watched Michael Jackson’s Thriller video. Yep, close your open mouth, it’s pretty shocking. I’m not prissy or a goody-two-shoes, but I can’t even think about this topic, it’s so disturbing to my psyche. Huge issues. Watched “Sleeping With The Enemy” once and still have flashbacks when I load my pantry…hahaha. I’m a firm believer of the old Sunday school song that I was taught early on, “Oh, be careful little eyes what you see….”๐ŸŽถ Hahaha! Well, I’m sad I’ll be out of the loop, and a bit shocked he took this one. But, of course, happy he got what he wanted!

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    • wow, you didn’t see that video? That must have involved serious effort; it was everywhere for a while. I was freaked by “Sleeping with the enemy, too.”

      The “be careful little eyes” song — that was more or less how I was raised. So I think I just didn’t develop the visual vocabulary for watching a lot of this stuff. I suppose it depends on how it’s done, in the end.

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      • Funny thing, the only clips of “Thriller” I ever saw was when I watched “13 going on 30” and they did the dance….hahaha. Our home growing up was very non-secular. I didn’t feel sheltered, and I got a great appreciation for all the musicals, great older movies and certainly watched my share of “The Waltons” and “Little House On The Prairie. ” In high school and college was the girl everyone tried to “introduce” things too. I eventually caught up, but certain behaviors and attitudes have remained regardless. Funny, but I have raised my kids similarly, but with much more open discussion and understanding of the choices. Less rigidity, but still the standards. I am pretty sure that my kids couldn’t even stomach a thriller genre movie either. Wonder whether it’s nature or nurture? One son had problems with dystopian novels, and the other kids totally dug The Hunger Games. Different strokes……

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        • I was sheltered somewhat from things that went on outside, but not from things that went on at home, so it’s all a wash, no? There’s always something.

          I am not sure what I’d do if I had kids. My nieces are being raised more strictly / religiously than we were. I truly don’t know what’s best.

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          • Yeah, don’t know what is “truly best” either! Have been on this humbling journey of parenthood, doing my utmost to do the right thing in many challenging circumstances. I can truly say that one understands their parents better when standing in their shoes. I am very aware of never offering anyone else who is parenting ANY advice, as the children, circumstances and means that inform a person’s development as a parent themselves is a highly individual thing! It is a hard enough task to be a parent, albeit a privilege too.

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  19. I’ve avoided watching “Hannibal” given the subject even though I enjoyed watching “Silence of the Lambs”. Given that RA will be on it, I’ll definitely start watching it in order to get myself up to speed. But once his involvement with the show ends, I’m outta there.

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    • Right now — unless someone talks me into reading the book — I’ll be waiting till I can see the show and then if I can continue watching after the first episode, I’ll look into the backstory, I guess. At least that’s my current plan. I’ve already gotten three mails urging me to read the book, lol!

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  20. Looks like I’m moving the previous seasons of Hannibal from my Netflix “watch eventually” pile to the “must watch NOW” pile. This made my day–can’t wait to see what he does with this role.

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  21. Well I am glad I’m not the only one feeling a bit yucky about this news. As I get older/ wiser/ more traumatized by RL cruelty, my tolerance for violence as entertainment has gone right down and this is not a show I would choose to watch.

    I can’t deny I’m disappointed – I went right off Anthony Hopkins after the film Hannibal and I’m worried that if I watch this, it will be the end of my admiration for RA too.

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    • My friend and colleague the former Cambridge professor often said that Hannibal was the beginning of the end of a great career for Hopkins … I dunno. Don’t know how it will affect me. I guess we will all see. But you don’t need to worry that I will be covering it with as much energy as I did The Crucible and The Hobbit — at least not until I at least see some of it.

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    • “As I get older/ wiser/ more traumatized by RL cruelty, my tolerance for violence as entertainment has gone right down and this is not a show I would choose to watch.”

      So much this.

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      • Raising hand and nodding in agreement. But, sure that he is going to do an amazing job. …that’s why I am sort of sad to miss it. Definitely want to see a still of his tattoo, however. …giggle, giggle, smirk.

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      • and exhausted. Exhausted by the sheer will of people to continue both committing cruelty and using it as entertainment.

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        • YES. This is why I can’t do dystopian or post-apocalyptic stories. I am not interested in exploring the idea of how low man will sink when the “rules” we know of have gone away. Like, that just isn’t entertainment. That’s life, and there are people around us all the time reminding us that they’re simply waiting for that opportunity. I would much rather be inspired by stories of the heights man does not realize he can reach until he is challenged to reach them. I would much rather believe in humanity than be reminded why I ought not to trust a single one of you.

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  22. I feel pretty much the same as you Serv. I have never been able to make myself watch The Silence of Lambs. I hadn’t heard about the series Hannibal before last night. Now I am rather sure I will give this a miss because this is the type of TV that makes me feel bad for days…
    I am sure RA will consider it a challenging role, and it might be good for his career too so I am pleased for him but as a fan I don’t feel I have to watch everything he plays. Even happier now that I decided to see him live on stage last year ๐Ÿ™‚

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  23. I am pleased for him about the exposure it will give him. However I also don’t think I will watch. Walking Dead, of which I am a huge fan, just had a cannibal theme last season for a couple of episodes and it was very confronting. I couldn’t watch some bits. So no Hannibal for me.

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  24. At the mere thought of Silence of the Lamb I feel nausea.
    I’ve seen some short clips fro Hannibal on YT.. yuck! and those souds..shivers!. I will follow him even there but I won’t stay too long ๐Ÿ˜‰

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  25. What intrigues me is his Silence on the subject (though he follows now Hannibal Twitter account as well as Bryan Fuller’s). No RTs? I remember him saying he didn’t like horror movies. Well, one more prove to never say never.

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  26. I imagine this should spawn some really interesting fanfic!

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    • YES. And even if I don’t read it, I was thinking last night that this will be a huge plus for me, rhetorically, because it’s so often been charged that my tastes in fanfic are disgusting, unethical, dangerous, etc. — any fanfic this series generates is likely to be well outside the previous borders of disgusting, unethical and dangerous in this fandom.

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  27. 30 minutes after hearing this news I went on Netflix and watched the first episode of season one and I’m mesmerized. I’m happy RA has a meaty role in a high quality TV drama. I have never gravitated towards crime dramas until I saw The Killing and I’m not a gore fan but I don’t mind it in the context of realism in war movies, a genre I love. There’s some gore but the scenes are highly stylized, almost dreamlike.

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  28. […] project and the reasons I keep seesawing back and forth, in a way that’s bugging me — one minute cold to it; the next, […]

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  29. […] fortitude over against the demands and opinions of fans, and I also thought this was present.ย  In early 2015, for instance, I could have added to this the decision to play Francis Dolarhyde in Hannibal, which […]

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